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BronxFigs

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Reply with quote  #1 
Each anniversary of this horrible day, brings back all the memories of seeing, live, in my city, the results of the enemies of America, attacking innocent citizens, and, our way of life.  Make no mistake about this...they will never stop attacking.  The Crusades never ended.  The brutal attacks in Benghazi, the Boston bombings, and the current events in the Middle East, prove my point. 

I can still smell the roasting concrete, and the awful stench of decomp that lingered in the air for months. Rain couldn't even wash it away, and only made it worse.  It was sickening then, and even more sickening now.  My experiences and recollections of the day's events, still causes all my suppressed hatred and the indignation that I feel for these feral humans, to rise within me.

Pause, and say some silent prayers for those who lost their lives, for their families, friends, and for those who will forever be affected by this atrocity against humanity. 

ALL enemies of America, both foreign and domestic, and even those we stupidly elect....must be vanquished.

My thoughts on this day.


Frank

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agreed with you 90%, but not with crusades. there is no place for religious, political or any other type of hatred. that's what brought on the 9/11. more understanding, more working with each other. and actively going after the terrorists. we have means to do surgical strike on any single target around the world. let's use it, and limit the death of innocent on both side. better yet, have the leaders of nations involved get in a hexagon and settle it with a knife fight. dull rusty knife.

good bless american and hope all those who have died in that event, and those who sacrificed their live to save those... rest in peace.


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jtp

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Reply with quote  #3 
The event was horrific, but it should never be a justification for more death. What does an "enemy" look like exactly? Everyone will have a different answer to this question. Look in the mirror. Maybe someone thinks you look like an enemy. The British saw George Washington as a terrorist. I do not see any violence as right, because it hurts all involved on some level. I just think we need to look at all sides and motivations of the issue before launching into yet another blind "us vs. them" reaction to what is over and done.

No race or religion is evil. Hatred lies within the individual hearts. Look around. I assure you that we have just as many Americans - Christian and otherwise - who are every bit as hateful as individuals of any other faith or skin color anywhere in the world. These people do not speak for the majority; they are abominations within equally peaceful groups. There is no religion or populace that lives to kill. We are all people. There are deviants. There are unjust leaders. Blame should be placed where it belongs, not onto an entire group.

How would Americans react if some other country came over and decided to "save" us from the world as we know it? Perhaps, if we ceased to force our idea of democracy onto other countries, the world would be better. Civil wars happen. We did not see interference in ours; the world largely allowed it to play out.

Certainly, billions of dollars could be better spent feeding families; building products at home; correcting badly-broken systems and infrastructure, and not offending other cultures. Imagine how much good work could be accomplished, if even a fraction of the personnel abroad were brought home and re-assigned to help with domestic issues. They'd live longer and feel good about creating, rather than destroying. No one ever got blown up or committed suicide from contributing to the betterment of their community.

Well, I am sure I have upset more than a few folks with this post. Just remember - Not everyone is Hitler; and not everyone wants our "help." Celebrate the lives of those lost, but don't drag their souls along as would-be martyrs. It's time to move forward.
Johnparav

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Reply with quote  #4 
To the contrary John , you didn't upset me . You put a smile on my face .
If everyone had your mindset , there would be far less manipulation of populations and pain in the world .

John
gabrielromelio

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Reply with quote  #5 
Exactly how I'm going on with my class lessons today John.
Well said.

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susieqz

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Reply with quote  #6 
i agree completely with frank. i never understood why we didn't bomb the home cities of the terrorists into rubble.


the cities were guilty of raising these evil people. they were guilty of not drowning them at birth.

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Pattee

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I thank God every day as my hubby and son were supposed to be in the WTT's on that morning at Windows on the World for morning business meetings , each different meetings but same place. Neither one knew that , but each had backed out very early that morning. Everything could have changed that day for my family. We are very blessed.
 We have a cousin retired from NYPD that was in the midst of all that destruction and has very bad lung disease stemming from those days at the site. 

Our thoughts and prayers are always with those lost and injured .

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jtp

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Reply with quote  #8 
Ignorance and fear is what drives aggression. If someone punches you in the face, would you fly into a blind rage, injuring that person's family, neighbors, friends and anyone within reach? Most people would say no. However, a few sad, scared, angry, little people would become what they fear and hate, lashing out to feel more in control again. It is the turning of normal people into frothing warmongers that is the true victory for terrorists. Want to win? Don't allow a handful of bad apples spoil your barrel.

And if someone dislikes you, would it really be acceptable for someone to crush your parents' home and/or community to rubble? Really? Perspective.
jtp

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Reply with quote  #9 
I'll add just one more thought. When you look into the mirror, on one side you can choose to see the word "live." If you cannot bear to do that and cannot enjoy life, look at that same word in the reflection. It will read "evil." That choice is for each individual to make. Bad things happen. It is how we react that matters.
WillsC

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John,

You have a very idealistic view of the world but it is also rather naive my friend.   I care what is best for THIS nation and what is best for America is not always going to make other people and nations happy.  That is reality, that is the real world.  You have a group of people who are religious zealots that want to kill all non Muslims.  What do you propose we do sit down with them and convince them to change their minds?   Be kind to them and they will change their minds?   Hand them flowers and they will change their minds?  Reason with the unreasonable and they will change their minds?   Isn't going to happen.  I am not talking about all Muslims......just those on the fringe of Islam.   What we have to do is simply kill them.   That is reality.   Don't believe me?  I could say go to Afghanistan find some on the fringe Muslims and try to change their minds about us infidels.....but of course you would be tortured and killed but I have a safer alternative.  Go up north and find a friendly Amish man and try to convince him that there are satellites in space or that man walked on the moon.  Another option is go have a chat with the scum at the Westboro Baptist church and convince them that say gays are good people or that divorce is not evil.  You will talk to you are blue in the face because the reality is that you can not reason with religious zealots.  Religious zealots no matter the faith no matter the nation are trouble and when they are violent religious zealots...the only way to deal with them is the way you deal with a vicious dog.   Sorry but that is reality.  
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Reply with quote  #11 


BTW, don't start arguing with one another over peace, please.

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bullet08

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Reply with quote  #12 
like dennis would say just about now.. how 'bout them figs?
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Pete
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"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

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***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
GRamaley

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Reply with quote  #13 
I had just gotten divorced and move from NYC to AZ. My two sons were still with my ex as I got settled, we watched the horror on TV. The of coarse was no phone service so I had no idea if my sons were in the city dropped at daycare or safe just north of the city. You can't imagine my fear and how helpless I felt. Do I hate the people that did this yes I do, do I think we should bomb everyone of that race or religion? That would make us no better than them.
There is a movie called "Grave of the Fireflies" it is about children orphaned or separated from their parents during WWII, before watching I never considered that there were people in other countries that disagreed with the wars and weren't all "yes let's conquer the world". There are people out there that just want to live their lives in peace and don't feel the way these monsters do, they don't need to be bombed nor hated, they have about as much control as we do when one of our own shoots up a school. I know this doesn't help the pain and lose but nothing really will. I lost friends in those tower that day and I will always miss them no matter who is punished.
That's my 2 cents

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jtp

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Reply with quote  #14 
I think we can all agree to agree or disagree on this matter. Reality is what you make it. Do the zealots tend to bomb countries that leave them alone? Not very often.

If you stir a bees' nest without any thought to what is inside, you tend to get stung. If you approach in a calm, respectful manner, very often, you get honey.

My point is that we have our share of zealots right here at home. Those are the people who push the agenda to interfere and use force where it is unwelcome. They are the same people who display shocked indignation and cry foul when someone dares to hit back. Who's really naïve - those who desire peace or those who start wars?

You don't kill the dog to get the fleas.
FMD

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Reply with quote  #15 
I don't know, Wills. I don't think it's a matter of naivety. The world is not black and white. If we operate only on the premise of what is good for America (installing brutal dictatorships around the globe and supporting criminal regimes that brutalize their own people for our economic benefit), we should not be surprised at the blow back from the people we are hurting.

Going after individuals who commit atrocities like 911 or the Boston Marathon bombings makes a lot of sense. Invading an entire country or two, seems not only excessive but counterproductive to our long term financial, and spiritual well being. Mass killing thousands of innocent people (including children) in our efforts to go after the fringe extremists makes as much moral sense as a terrorist blowing himself up in crowed bus. We are supposed to be better than that.

There are better, more intelligent ways of skinning this cat without the reactionary emotional response of bombing whole countries into ruble...which clearly hasn't worked.

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pawpawbill

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Reply with quote  #16 
My two cents. The gassing of civilians in Syria was horrific. But, I do not believe that an individual country has the right to attack another country unless it been attacked or is imminently threatened with attack. Syria violated our values. China violated our values killing millions during the cultural revolution. Cambodia violated our values killing millions of its own citizens. As did the Soviet Union. We did not attack then, and do not have the right to attack now. Our way of life is an affront to many Muslim and communist countries, but that does not give them the right to attack us either. We fight wars for national preservation, not for indignation.

A better approach would be to make a detailed case to the UN. Let the world shame Russia into allowing a war crimes trial for Assad, if the case against him is real. Our unilateral attack would do more harm than good.
WillsC

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeaspanen
Do the zealots tend to bomb countries that leave them alone? Not very often.



Really?   The attackers on 9/11 were Saudis, all of them.....when was the last time we attacked Saudi Arabia?  When did we used a drone to take out a terrorist in Saudi Arabia?   Our nation is on very good terms with the Saudis......when they asked for our help when Iraq invaded Kuwait we were there for them. 
jtp

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We currently have agreeable terms with the Saudis. If we ever do not, guess who is suddenly a dictatorship? Things that are happening now on the quiet will suddenly become atrocities, if it serves our agenda. America was once on excellent terms with Noriega, Saddam Hussein and Kadafi (or however you wish to spell his name, as the media changed it daily). We set them up, enjoying the fruits of the relationship (usually financially), and then, we take them out later when they decide to not play anymore. Karzai or Assad will be the next in a long line of jilted friends turned monsters.

We are on tenuous "friendly" terms with a lot of nations. Each side behaves themselves (on the surface) until it serves them to no longer do so. The Saudi leaders are no angels, nor are our guys. That nation was the home for fringe zealots, just as we surely have spawned misguided individuals. Are the bad guys supported by their home countries? Maybe, maybe not. If so, not every single soul in a region is packing the bombs. To say that we should pummel everyone to dust by association is pure ignorance and no different than the mindset of those we condemn.

Again, we are talking individuals, not entire countries. Why bomb the kid going to the community well for water? Would you send drones upon people praying in a church, temple or mosque? Because they MIGHT someday be a terrorist? Really? Then, I suppose you would take it in stride if somebody killed your child or grandchild on an assumption or preconceived bias about his origin, correct?

It's really not about people, so much as money. The Twin Towers were a symbol of American financial power (and make no mistake, a huge phallic symbol). Taking them down was an insult to our image of supremacy, a cutting down of our huge erection, literally. War can be great for the economy, as it was in the WWII era. But none of our modern conflicts have jumpstarted industry or rebuilt roadways. Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait and Iraq were not the economic boon our leaders had hoped for, except perhaps personally. Our leaders continue to follow that old model in a changed world. Yet, only their business associates reap any benefits.

Modern conflicts have also not gained us respect and friendship. It has made us a target and allowed our own domestic society to decline at the cost of force-feeding the "dream" onto other nations. And now that it has been revealed that we spy on our friends as much as our enemies, who will truly be our friend now? As far as the Middle East, we butted our noses into an area that has seen conflict for thousands of years. Did anyone truly expect this intrusion would not bring about some form of retribution eventually? Have a tall glass of oil. I hope it was worth it.

Knee-jerk reactions to 9/11 brought us the Patriot Act and the clandestine NSA actions. Frankly, I am far more concerned for our personal freedoms at home than I am about some tribal conflict in an area that may have natural resources.
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Reply with quote  #19 
John,

I hope to one day visit your planet:)  
jtp

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Reply with quote  #20 
It would be nice if we could all just make this one better. I realize this is a hot topic that inspires various emotions in people. I can only hope, as I find it more productive than seething about that which is beyond my control. Besides, there are a lot of great figs over there. How can any of us want to blow those magnificent trees back to the Stone Age?
Johnparav

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Reply with quote  #21 
The problem with some people is that they are clueless to the reality of who truly controls governments these days .
Don't let the state manipulate you with your patriotism .
People have very little faith in their politicians and governments , but when it comes to foreign policy and the politicians start waving the flag all
of a sudden they can do no wrong .
Our governments protect corporate interest not the interests of the people .
As a citizen it is everyone's responsibility to be properly informed , put down the converter and pick up a book .
WillsC don't forget that Bin Laden worked for the US against the Russians in Afganistan , he was a good guy at one time .
Where do you think he got a lot of his training to be a terrorist ?
And you accuse others of being naive ?

John
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Reply with quote  #22 
JohnP,

Let me guess you believe the USA blew up our own towers right?  Was it because those evil corporations told them to?  I do love a good conspiracy theory!   


My point was very clear......and you and the other John both ignored it.......how do you get religious zealots to stop being religious zealots?  People have been trying to solve this problem for centuries but it seems you two have it all figured out.  Please enlighten us on how we solve this problem...how do we get religious zealots to stop believing that what they are doing is right.  I'm all ears.   Perhaps you can practice on the Westboro Baptist church?  
figherder

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
.how do we get religious zealots to stop believing that what they are doing is right.
The short answer is you dont. However killing innocents and destroying nations probably isnt going to win us any brownie points. In fact I would argue that killing innocents will only add fuel to the fire and create more of what we claim to despise.

Are we any safer today? How many illegals are in the country? We dont even know. Guesstimates are between 10 and 30 million with 1.4 million of them being gang member. If they can get in can the terrorists get in too?

9/11 was a sad day for America. The best thing we could do now is bring our men and women home and secure our own borders. We could fight terror for 1000 years and never win.


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Johnparav

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Reply with quote  #24 
I'm more concerned with the patriotic zealots .
They are the ones that allow their governments to interfere with other nation's sovereignty causing all the hatred .
Wake up .

John
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Reply with quote  #25 
Frank!  We will NEVER forget!  I will always remember when my alarm went off on the news station...  And I heard!  And I ran down the hall, woke up my daughter and said, "we have to go watch TV!"  As usual, she obliged, and we watched in horror!

This is OUR land! 

Don't you forget it!

Suzi

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Reply with quote  #26 
Frank -Thank you for the sentiment.  I have avoided this all day just to watch the responses.  I see that the responses are about what I would expect.  The sadness I feel is not over the deaths of so many but the lack of understanding of what we are up against, the empathy, the uninformed, the wishful thinkers, the lack of a "code" by most.  It continues to amaze me that those that have never been oppressed, or seen the oppressed seem to know so much about oppression.

The attack on 9/11 was not an attack on America, it was an attack on a set of ideals, the victims were American but primarily it was an attack on the American way of life.

To those that think there is a better place in this world I would urge them to go, live the life, then talk to me about it.  I have been in 53 countries, seen the good, the bad, and the rest that most would not believe.

I harbor no illusions, mine or anyone elses.

Remember, Peace is only a period of time between wars to rest, recuperate, and reload.

Sorry for those that don't get it.

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dkirtexas

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Reply with quote  #27 
I apologize for making this statement here.
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jtp

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Reply with quote  #28 
Just to be clear, I am not anti-U.S., although I feel the terms "patriot" and "hero" have been diluted by their misuse and overuse. Today was termed "Patriots Day" by our government. Why? Do we know for a fact that any of those who died on this day were bleeding red, white and blue? More likely, those in power took advantage of the martyr factor to stir up the populace and push an agenda. It was horrible and sad for our country and for the families, but for certain political factions, it was advantageous. Saying this is not being unpatriotic; it's being honest.

Wills, I do not think you can turn all of the minds of all of the radicals by being nice. But you also will not alienate any more people by showing compassion, openness and humanity. I do agree with bringing folks home and securing the borders. You cannot attack what you cannot access. And if you are not making people furious abroad, they are less likely to seek you out. It was no small matter to attack our country's symbols on our soil. Terrorists are made, not born. Someone, somewhere, really pissed those people off.

We should never forget (and the TV channels will not allow it because it is ratings gold), but we should also not be sheep. Far too many Americans give away their power and ability to think because it is easier. Mindless programming and junk food washes away a litany of sins. It worked for the Romans. The only difference is our gladiators are Kardashians. Just think before reacting in the fashion you are coached. Not every country or religion that spawns a terrorist is guilty and deserving an attack.

NOTE: For the NSA, who I am sure is listening/watching me by now. I loathe guns and own none. I am no fan of violence. I am disappointed, not disgruntled. And I truly wish we could stop wasting money in other lands when we have so many issues that need addressing here. Feed the hungry. House the homeless. Make stuff here for once. Do this, and we can again strive to be the mark to beat in this world. (We're good? OK. Now go do surveillance on someone who does more than grow figs. Thanks.)
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Reply with quote  #29 
I tried not to read this thread.


I was supposed to be downtown that day.
It was a beautiful Tuesday.
I was falling in love.

The whole thing happened while I was driving,
and the radio painted the pictures.

What happened on that day was incomprehensible.
It made us feel vulnerable, unsafe, angry, desperate.

After years of nightmares and anxiety attacks, I made
peace with it.

Anniversaries are painful when they mark a loss.
All of us lost something 12 years ago.

As we go through our lives, we will lose and heal, scar
and lose again.
The world isn't fair.
Every time I see an ambulance zipping by with sirens
blaring, I'm grateful that it wasn't my turn to have
a horrible day.
It wasn't my turn to lose.
But every day, someone is losing something that's precious
to them.

I was going crazy, trying to comprehend why, how...

Now I come home, give my wife a kiss, give my son
a huggy, call my mom on the weekend, and appreciate
what I have...for now.

Oh, and I'd like to be appreciating a Florea cutting
this winter! PM me ;)

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winston61

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Reply with quote  #30 
I was as shocked and disgusted as anyone else when this murderous tragedy occurred. That said however I believe that our fig forum is the completely wrong place to discuss this event. There are thousand of websites and forums where politics and policy can be discussed, but not here. Moderators, do your job and delete this post and keep a sharp eye out for all posts political and religious. This post and the replies are completely inappropriate in this context. Let's all stay friends.
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