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MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #1 
OK, I know that leaves can be very misleading, especially on young immature trees.  But about a month or two ago I bought a Petit Negri from Edible Landscaping  (I figured for that variety, Michael at EL would be a  good source, given the history).  So it arrived about a month ago, and the leaves don't look at all like what I've seen of Petit Negri.  I figured maybe they're just immature, so I'd wait until the tree gets some age to it.  But since then I've seen two other immature Petit Negri trees, and they both had the characteristic deep lobes.  So here are a few photos... can this really be a Petit Negri?  Anyone out there ever seen a Petit Negri with leaves like this?


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jpeg Petit_Negri_EL_1_small_file.jpg (230.82 KB, 195 views)
jpeg Petit_Negri_EL_2_small_file.jpg (216.05 KB, 196 views)
jpeg Petit_Negri_EL_3_small_file.jpg (227.48 KB, 200 views)


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BLB

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Reply with quote  #2 
I would say that it is mislabeled, not even close
shah8

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Reply with quote  #3 
The leaves do look like the three-lobed leaves on my trees.  All I'd say is that Petite Negri is extremely unstable in leaf morphology.  Next year it may well have totally different leaves.

Also, there are obviously different strains of Petite Negri going around.

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Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #4 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLB
I would say that it is mislabeled, not even close
 

I agree they're not even close... but I wondered about immature tree leaves, since sometime immature trees have weird looking leaves.  But these seem so far off...

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BLB

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Reply with quote  #5 
Petite negra has more cut leaves even as a juvenile. I don't recall ever seeing 3 lobes on mine, but anything is possible. Shah8 says his has them. 
shah8

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Reply with quote  #6 
They are the least frequent set of lobes, though, and do not persist along the branches, like one, five, or seven.
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Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct.

Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Yeah, I see.  Shah8, where did you get yours from?  

Also, I did a google search, and found what appears to be an obsolete version of Jon's "varieties" page, (or at least a no-longer-linked version of it), and inside that I found this photo reference:
http://figs4fun.com/fpix/FP940-12.jpg

So now I'm wondering...  shah8 your point about different strains of Petit Negri, versus unstable leaf morphology.  Where did you get your Petit Negri?  And have you already seen such wide variation in leaves?

I know I've seen Petit Negri trees (several times) that have one main branch having all deeply cut leaves (10 or 20 of them), and another main branch having all single-lobed leaves (10 or 20 of them) that look almost like a large elm leaf.  I've never before seen a 3-lobed Petit Negri leaf though...

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satellitehead

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Reply with quote  #8 
Never judge on immature leaves.  I got wood from a member that was labelled "Hardy Chicago".  As it was growing the first 18 months, the leaves looked exactly like my Italian Honey from the same source.  This year, at 4' tall and caliper slightly thicker than a man's thumb, all of the leaves have the telltale sign of Hardy Chicago.

Wait until next year to judge, or look at leaves when active growth is not occuring.  Humor me on this one ;)

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Jason
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Reply with quote  #9 
Edible Landscaping in the early 90s.
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Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

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Reply with quote  #10 
I also purchased a Petit Negri from EL earlier this year. I just looked. Almost all it's leaves are 3 lobed, but cut deeper than the photo at the start of this thread. Can't take a photo right now.
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BLB

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Reply with quote  #11 
I will be quit surprised if it winds up being Pn. I've airlayered mine, seen photos of it for sale and never seen one like that. If it is a different strain it is very different. Jason ordinarily I would agree with you but in my experience Pn is an exception to the rule and usually shows it's true leaves very young or at least, cut up leaves while young.
MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shah8
Edible Landscaping in the early 90s.

Wow, so an approximately 20-year old tree.  Does it still make some 3-lobed leaves?  And do some of the leaves look like at this link?
http://figs4fun.com/fpix/FP515-39.jpg 

Quote:
Originally Posted by satellitehead
Humor me on this one ;)

OK... I already figured I'd keep the tree, and wait and see.  But I was also thinking of writing to Michael at EL to ask about it (maybe I'll hold off).

Sure appreciate all the responses...

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
I also purchased a Petit Negri from EL earlier this year. I just looked. Almost all it's leaves are 3 lobed, but cut deeper than the photo at the start of this thread. Can't take a photo right now.


Thanks Gina.  If convenient, let's compare notes on when/if our trees start making the deeply cut style of 5-lobed or 7-lobed leaves.  

I got one from EL a couple of years ago for my dad, and his had deeply cut leaves from the start also.  It does have me wondering about what shah8 was saying... i.e. how different are different strains of PN?

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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lukeott

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Reply with quote  #14 
I would send EL a picture of what you have to compare and also get them to send you a picture. I have a plant but it's older and the leaves look nothing like that. I also agree with others that immature leaves can be different. I'm not positive, but I think mine is from EL also. Either way, I would want to find out just so I knew. This seems to be a good company and think they will be more then happy to check for you.


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Reply with quote  #15 
Yes EL is a good company, but mistakes happen too. I got my PN from Parks Seed so mine could also be wrong. I do think based on the fruit and leaves of mine that it is correct though. It is unusual for me to source figs from them, think I was buying somthing else and ordered one on impulse. Much prefer to get my figs from forum members or the handful of known reliable vendors that most on the forum do business with. 
rafed

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Reply with quote  #16 
Mike,

I would wait another year if I were you. Give a young tree a chance to mature and then we will judge, if need be.
A young tree is like a baby sometimes, babies change their appearance every time you turn around.

But it looks like you have a young and healthy tree.
Doubt EL would knowing sell you a mislabeled tree.

Good luck

BLB

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Reply with quote  #17 
EL also sells VDB, my VDB does throw 3 lobes on occassion, hmmm. VDB and PN are pretty close in appearance of the leaf and the fruit too. That would be my guess, but hey wait and see as many suggest.
Gina

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Reply with quote  #18 
Here are the leaves from my PN from EL. It came in a 4 inch pot a few months ago and is now in a 2 gallon. The first photo is from a sprout from the base that show leaves showing a slight tendency for 5 lobes.

The plant is growing in full sun - maybe 10 hours/day

Click to enlarge

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jpeg fig_petit_negri_s.jpg (261.71 KB, 182 views)
jpeg fig_petit_negri_2_s.jpg (271.61 KB, 203 views)


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shah8

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Reply with quote  #19 
Michael, not at all.  Only a minority of the 5-lobed are especially cut and none of them are as cut as standard issue VdB, Negronne, or Valle Negra.  They usually look fat enough that they could be mistaken for something else.  In general, my figs' dominant leaves resemble Vista in the photo archives.
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Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct.

Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

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Reply with quote  #20 
Barry,

Doubt it is VDB but if by any chance it were to be Mike would come out a winner.
Herman2

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Reply with quote  #21 
Michael:You got the correct Petite Negri.
The Petite Negra That Parks seeds sell is not Petite Negri,but Aubique Petite That Pierre Baud sells from France.
The world of figs is so confused because some nurseries make it confusing by placing false labels on  trees.
Michael at EL,has the genuine Petite Negri,that is a cultivar in itself.
It makes figs almost undistinguished from Ischia Black,but The leaves are different,and three lobes,compared to Five lobes Ischia Black has,as dominant leaf.
The leaves shape will mature in August and will be a little different to now but will never be identical to Petite Negra,which in Fact is Pierre Baud Aubique Petite.

Here is Aubique Petite aka Petite negra sold by Park seeds!,Pix

Edit Note:Now That I have seen Gina pix ,I can state for sure that Edible landsc, has 2 different trees labeled as Petite Negri,or they get plants from wholesale supplier and sometime they get one kind sometimes the other.
Gina's fig is Petite Negra aka Aubiique Petite the same plant Park seed is selling as such.
Michael plant is Old style genuine Petite Negri.
Both trees are very good cultivars adapted to small garden and both make wonderful tasty figs.




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jpeg Petite_Aubique.JPG (113.20 KB, 214 views)

hblta

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Reply with quote  #22 
From the pics, it looks like I also got petite nigra, instead of petite negri.

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Gina

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Gina's fig is Petite Negra aka Aubiique Petite the same plant Park seed is selling as such.
Michael plant is Old style genuine Petite Negri.


I just checked and the label on mine from EL and it says Petite Negri. But it's apparently not. I'm disappointed. If I had wanted the one Park sold, I would have purchased it from Park.

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shah8

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Reply with quote  #24 
Vasilly, please put a comparison pic for the petite negri, if you have one so people can see right off.

Again, My strain of Petite Negri is not suitable for small gardens, unless it's in a pot, 'cause it does want to be a tree.  It needs heat for proper ripening.  Racking my memory from last year's main harvest, the period is about three weeks long, and the figs are hard to hold more than two of (I've gone in, try to pick a handful of fruit, and wind up setting them on the terracing rail-tie, and getting a bowl) so I think it's generally somewhere north of 40g, probably 60 or so dense/pasty grams.  The fruits are relatively pyriform, with a very thin and easily cracking skin.  The interior is very similar in color and structure to a BI, just less round.  The flavor is generally strawberry, fig, mulberry/wine, and when it's good, sweet cut with acid such that it's pretty bright/intense.  Not super-sweet.  This is all unreliable memory, so I will be paying attention this year, hopefully ripening in good weather--cute little figs are beginning to exit the stagnant phase now.

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Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct.

Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

BLB

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Reply with quote  #25 
Well now I'm confused, which seems to be happening a lot lately. Don't think Gina's plant looks like mine, but my source was Parks about 6 years ago and according to you Herman, Gina and I should have the same plant Abiqua Petite. I will post pics of my leaves tomorrow, but in the mean time, can you tell me what the Petite negra brebas should look like? Mine are very elongated, I've posted pics of them this year and last. And who would like to swap scion? 
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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
And who would like to swap scion?


If you have 'the real' (ha,ha,ha) Petite Negri, I would. Unless we have the same thing. I am thinking I could remove and root that lower shoot from the base quite nicely.
 The top of mine is not large enough yet to do more.

Michael's original photo looks a lot like the young Ischia Black I rooted from Jon.

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MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #27 
Wow, lots of great responses... thank you all.  (So far I mean, since it appears that parts of the discussion may continue).

Gina - I was surprised by how much the leaves on your tree look like maple leaves!
 
And Barry, assuming that mine grows enough this year to get some cuttings, I'll do a trade.  (I'm interested to trade to have both of the cultivars, and would happily line up to trade with you... I think we may have another trade or two pending for the dormant season even, would have to go check my "pending trades" list :-)

Herman / Vasilly, thanks for all of the info.

Likewise thank you Rafed.

Shah8, I appreciate the comparison info as well as all the rest.

(And many thanks to all who are helping me sort this out).  Meanwhile to all who commented about EL... yes I agree that EL is a good and reputable place.  I've ordered other things from them in prior years (besides figs), and have found Michael M there to be most helpful.  I too don't believe they'd purposefully send me the wrong fig (rather had just wondered if maybe it was a mistake... but I'm happy to learn that it's sounding like no mistake!).

(And you guys who commented about VdB... I've got one of those already from a very generous "Fig Santa Claus" member here, who prefers to remain anonymous but was wonderfully generous to me!).

OK, from all the responses so far, I've got some confusion too  (it's catchy, Barry!).  But I'll put that in a separate post :-)

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #28 
So here's the bit that still confuses me... it's about how many spellings there are, and how many actual cultivars  (that you knowledgeable folks know of, I mean).  So much rampant confusion about cultivars and spellings (witness Abruzzes which also goes by Kadota and Dotatto according to Condit, versus Abruzzi which is a very different fig).
 
(btw, Jon's page says that Michael McConkey of EL introduced PN, and others say Condit did). 

So after reading what Herman and Rafed and others said above, plus all the info that Jon's "varieties" page says about Petit Negri and Petite Negri (which also includes spellings of P. Negra in its photos, as well as P. Nigra), quoting ideas from Ray Givan and the Alabama CE, I'm confused.

I'll ignore the spelling difference between "petite" and "petit", but we've then still got:
      Petite Negri    (from EL)
      Petite Negra   (sold by Park Seeds, aka Aubique Petite)  
      Petite Negra   (is there another of these?) 
      Petite Nigra
(And though I know about plurals and singulars in various Romance dialects, it seems as though you guys are telling me that at least two of the above are separate.

As for whether any of them match VdB or some kind of Bordeaux, that'd be interesting too.

How many of the spellings above are really the same fig?  Or, in case the spellings are so interchangeably used, I could ask it another way... how many different cultivars of this are there, and what source attributions would sort out the figs that go by P. Negri/Negra/Nigra?

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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BLB

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Reply with quote  #29 
Can of worms. I'm thinking the spelling is not real important, but it is possible one source spells it one way and different source another way and those sources may even have different trees. At any rate, it's a deal. I'd be happy to send you scion in the fall Michael, especially since it appears like we have 2 different figs. Same for you Gina, unless of course it is determined that we do have the same tree.
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Reply with quote  #30 
The majority of small Petite Negri I see on this forum, like what nelson or zaitun has posted, have three lobes as with the original post.  Of course, many of the larger tree examples look a heckuva lot like Noire de Caromb.

/me shrugs...whatcha gonna do?

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Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct.

Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #31 
I agree a can of worms about spelling.  But I'm still interested to understand  how many distinct cultivars there are that go by one or another variant of this spelling, and maybe find some way to identify them (even if not by the subtle spelling variations).  For example, source attribution seems a reasonable way to try... 

    Petite Negri - EL   (pictured above when young)
    Petite Negra - Pierre Baud   (pictured above also?)
            (same as Petite Negri - Park Seeds)
            (same as Aubique Petite - Pierre Baud)
    Petite Negra - is there another version of this?  e.g.  http://figs4fun.com/Thumbnail_Petit_Negri.html   (these photos match most closely with the 4 other PN's I've seen in person, btw, including limbs  having the 5-lobed and 1-lobed leaves on the same tree but different limbs being consistent).
    Petite Nigra - is this something different?  Or just another insignificant variant in spelling?   e.g.  http://figs4fun.com/fpix/FP940-12.jpg 

If any of you guys knows how many cultivars being called PN there are... seems at least 2 but maybe more?  

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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pitangadiego

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Reply with quote  #32 
Look like VdB leaves to me, but my Petit Negri has the same leaves and is not so Petite, either. Had another PN many years ago that was definitely Petite, but fruit was largely indistinguishable from VdB. Don't know if it was petite as a tree or for cultural reasons, At the time I just looked at it as a tree that didn't want to grow. Fruit was good.
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Reply with quote  #33 
My guess is part of the problem is the name itself - petite meaning small, and negra meaning black. How many different small black figs, perhaps closely related, might there be? This probably has added to the confusion as well.

I hope the one I have, whatever it is, grows well and tastes good.

I have two VdBs from different sources (one purchased with the 'PN'), that look quite different as well.

Maybe we could form a chapter of PNA - Petite Negra Anonymous - and hire a fig therapist. :)

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Reply with quote  #34 
It doeasn't Matter the spelling,There is only one Petite Negri,and that one is the one
in the post #1
It has that three lobes leaf.
Any other Petit negri,negra petite etc,that got deeply lobed five  lobes leaves,those are Petite Aubique,or Aubique petite,and they originates in France from Pierre Baud Nursery.
They were sold by many nurseries as Petite Negra negri By mistake.
It doesn't matter how many other cultivars are sold as Petite Negri,only the pix in post #1 is Petite Negri.
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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
You guys opened a can of worms.
The only Petite Negri is the one in post # 1.
It does not matter how many are going around.


We might have opened it, but we didn't fill the can with worms. EL did that by selling something that is not the Petite Negri they labeled it as, and some of us ordered and paid for.

I know mistakes happen, but I apparently am still without the fig I thought I had ordered. And I'm not happy about it.

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MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #36 
Um, Gina, ... what post are you quoting?  (in your post #35).  It sounds like the same basic point that Herman was making in post #34.  But, where's the quote from?

Herman and Jon, thanks for the info.  I liked your statement, Jon, about "At the time I just looked at it as a tree that didn't want to grow".  Kinda brought a smile... so far mine hasn't grown in a month either (but it's only a month).  My dad's has grown only a few inches in a year.  (But he has the "other" kind of PN that's apparently the fig that Pierre Baud introduced).

And yep Gina, I know it means "small black", but aren't many of these fig cultivar names equally ambiguous?  I just mean there are lots of them that sound like the same thing... you know, what's in a name?  (Tons of them seem to have names that are just descriptions).  Getting to where I'll just shrug too, like shah8.

Thanks again for all the info and discussion.  Herman, have you got any photo that is a good reference pic for Aubique Petite - Pierre Baud ?

Mike  central NY state, zone 5

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Gina

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Um, Gina, ... what post are you quoting? (in your post #35). It sounds like the same basic point that Herman was making in post #34. But, where's the quote from?


I was quoting from post #34, but what I quoted is no longer there. Wording revisions happen. No harm, no foul. :)

Quote:
And yep Gina, I know it means "small black", but aren't many of these fig cultivar names equally ambiguous? I just mean there are lots of them that sound like the same thing... you know, what's in a name? (Tons of them seem to have names that are just descriptions). Getting to where I'll just shrug too, like shah8.


Absolutely. I also was thinking of names like Black Greek or White Italian, etc. I know in the end it will be an 'Oh, Well...' situation, but it can get expensive and/or time consuming trying to buy or get or start the same fig you thought you already had.

Oh well.... ;)

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Reply with quote  #38 
I think there are no adult petite negri with dominant three-lobe, though.  It's a blend of 1 and 5 lobe tree.  Baud pretty clearly considers Petite Aubique to be the same as Negronne, and in general, PN generally has larger fruit than what Baud would think likely for petite aubique.
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Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct.

Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette

Rooting:  Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.

MichaelTucson

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Reply with quote  #39 
I hear you, shah8.  I think it's pretty interesting the way those trees have limbs that are consistent with 1-lobed leaves and also limbs that consistently have 5-lobed leaves, both on the same tree.  Also kinda fun that "petite" must refer to the tree itself, since the fruit is generally large.  (A "small black" that makes large black fruit).  Also kinda fun that some of them seem to grow like weeds (there are three that I know of locally that have grown more than 3 feet on each of their two main limbs this season), and others seem to be dwarf-like trees.  Just lots of variations I guess... begs the question where to draw the line between different cultivars versus variation within a cultivar.  The very-slow-growing versus the fast-growing seems significant enough I guess (though it could be cultural / conditions, so without some careful comparison that's ambiguous... I do suspect there are gene differences that separate those cases though).

Interesting that you say Baud considers Aubique Petite the same as Negronne... Ray Givan seems to think the same (from the quotes attributed to him on Jon's reference pages).

Thanks again.

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
My guess is part of the problem is the name itself - petite meaning small, and negra meaning black. How many different small black figs, perhaps closely related, might there be? This probably has added to the confusion as well.


From what I have read,Negra is a location in France.

Negri is a surname for people in France.

The usual "noire" would be the likely description for black fig in France.

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Reply with quote  #41 
My Petite whatever the heck it is, is a large tree, producing small black figs with larger and very long breba. My tree has leaves similar to VDB, but not the same. I'm thinking that Parks, EL and other sources interchange Petite Abiqua, Petite Negra and even VDB either intentionally or unknowingly. Just my thoughts. I will post pics of my leaves in a little while.
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Reply with quote  #42 

Ray Givan makes 2 statements about Petite Negri:
In his  Fig Booklet he states:There are 2 distinct cultivars labeled Petite Negri:
One is Negronne,the other seem to be Black Ischia.
Notice he said,"SEEM TO BE".
Then he states:I am convinced,that the one that reassemble Ischia Black is the Correct Petite Negri.

On Ray Givan Internet site,he changes the statement and writes:
Identical with Negronne. Introduced under trade name of Petite Negri by Mike McConkey of Edible Landscaping. This fig is Negronne: The name Petite Negri was given Ischia Black by a Frenchman in the late 19th century. It was eventually imported into the U.S. and became confused with Negronne in a commercial nursery. (An understandable error since the very young, reddish-brown fruit is easily confused with that of Negronn
e.

My Conclusion:Petite Negri was from beginning a fig that resemble Ischia Black but was it's own kind and not Ischia Black.(Look like pix in #1 post)
Yet it has leaves more like Ischia Black and not like Negronne aka Violette de Bordeau,and  Also not like Aubique Petite.
Pixies of Aubique Petite taken today,Below.

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jpeg DSCN2123.JPG (111.34 KB, 133 views)
jpeg DSCN2124.JPG (113.82 KB, 136 views)

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Reply with quote  #43 
My young Ischia Blacks (photo below) from Jon look more like the photo in post #1 than do the leaves of my 'Petite Negri' from EL.

Well, if they (Aubique Petite) are above average figs, I guess it's OK. Not much I can do anyway. 

I agree the leaves on mine are like the ones in Herman's photos. So what name do I put on my plant?

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jpeg fig_leaves_s.jpg (142.32 KB, 896 views)


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Reply with quote  #44 
See last year's discussion ..


http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Petit-Negri-Not-So-Petit-5472207?highlight=negri

So, I guess I have a Petite Aubique rather than a Petit Negri.
Apologies to all those that I gave plants and cuttings labeled as PN. You are the new proud owners of Petite Aubique.





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Reply with quote  #45 
I think we're just bumping up against climate and age determining what the leaf should be.  I do not think there ever was a PN that was actually an Ischia Black or something similar--in fact I would be unsurprised if some PN are flavors of Barnisotte, because there were definitely strains of Barnisotte meant for pots in the English nursery trade, and they tended to go by "petite"-x.  The name Ischia seems to have been given to a number of figs that's supposed to be from that island in the English nursery trade.  We're dealing with English misidentification just as much as we're dealing with US misidentification.  This should be obvious what with all the similar figs with different names and mysterious origins.  I mean, Vista Black Mission?  Where did that come from, originally?  Beers Black?

It's not as if my plants ever looked like Vasilly's plant.  The outer thumbs in five lobed leaves do not strongly recurve, but sticks up, or simply straight out.  Only seven lobed leaves has thumbs like the one in post 42.  Of course, I can't remember my figs ever looking dominant three lobed, but they were sold bigger than the ones in the original pic.  If anything, the lack of shine on the leaves of the teeny plants, unlike Gina's young plants, are a bigger indictment against PN-hood.

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Reply with quote  #46 
Gina:The fig in post 18,has leaves similar to Aubique Petite, Pierre Baud sells,so you can safely label it as  Aubique Petite.
It is not a bad fig,by the contrary it is an excellent fig cultivar.
Gina :Ischia Black  you have  has  leaves similar to Petite Negri,and that is why ,some say it is Ischia Black,but I think Petite Negri is it's own kind.
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Reply with quote  #47 
Thanks Herman. Good to know. I'll relabel my 'PN' to AB. :)
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Reply with quote  #48 
Here are the leaves of my Petite negra. Much to my chagrin, surprise and embarasement, I found 3 lobed leaves on it. Herman what is the verdict? negra or abiqua? 

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jpeg petite_negra_leaves_2012.jpg (307.01 KB, 119 views)
jpeg Petite_negra_leaves_close_up_2012.jpg (284.73 KB, 110 views)

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLB
Here are the leaves of my Petite negra. Much to my chagrin, surprise and embarasement, I found 3 lobed leaves on it. Herman what is the verdict? negra or abiqua? 


Barry, I'm interested to see Herman's response on your pix too.  But I have to say those look like Negronne / VdB to me.  Also note how shiny they are... even the three-lobed leaves don't resemble the leaves on my (admittedly still quite young) tree, which have no shiny luster.  (And I'm still up for the trade of scion with you this fall, regardless of how all this sorts out... I'm convinced that we have separate kinds of trees, whatever their names are).

And FMD - thanks for the link to that last-year thread... good info, much of it directly related to this one.  And very nice pix of these "PN" kinds there too.

Lastly, I am so captivated by those trees (Aubique Petite or Petit Aubique, or whatever they are, from Pierre Baud), that I'm going to go buy one of those too.  It's the kind that Bass used to have apparently also.  There's a nursery near here that has three of them... I'm talking about the kind that do that trick of one-limb-has-all-one-lobed-leaves-and-another-limb-has-all-five-lobed-leaves.  How cool!  (That's what I actually thought I was buying from EL, but it sounds like that's really the Pierre Baud cultivar).  The three that are for sale there seem to be the very fast growing ones, also  (i.e. not so petite).  Young trees that have 4 feet or more of individual stem growth this year alone.  (And you probably DON'T want to know the name that they have them labeled as... the people at this nursery are good people but not very into figs, and their label is pretty much out in left field.  When I last visited him, he was looking for bud unions on those trees, thinking they must have been grafted limbs, but he couldn't find any evidence of course).  

Regardless of all that's said so far, I still suspect there are multiple varieties of THAT kind too  (the Aubique Petite - Pierre Baud kind).  Differentiated by those that grow very slowly and stay small (a so-called dwarf tree), versus those that grow really fast and large.  If I get my hands on one of each, I'll try the experiment of treating them the same and see if they grow differently.  But for now, I'll get that fast-growing one, because it's close at hand.  (Will post pix).

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

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Reply with quote  #50 
Michael:There are no many varieties of Pierre Baud tree,there is only ,one but specimen are different because they are infected with more or less damaging Fig mosaic Virus.
The Virus mutates,and some keep the tree small and unproductive more than other.
That is why it looks like there are many different varieties of the same cultivar.
The Aubique Petite I have ,has a mild strain of FMV,that allow tree to grow normal,just like a healthy tree.
I get up to 2 foot of grow in one season,without applying any fertilizer,just leaf mulch,and minerals limestone .
BLB,:Your tree is just like My Aubique Petite,a good grower.
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