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KK

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It’s sad to see the season ending so I decided to extend it for a few weeks. The mother tree is on Madeira Island. He called it Black Madeira. Its 2 years old. I know it has a red inside. Puts on lots of figs like Jon’s BM, ripens about the same time, leaves look somewhat similar. The first ones that started ripening disappeared quickly. I was determined to taste/see a ripe one even though it’s not optimal growing conditions. I brought it inside under metal halide. Hung some plastic sheeting from the ceiling (I can do these things since I’m not married :) Today it was 86f inside and 70f outside. I have room for another one in there.


 

 


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armando93223

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Reply with quote  #2 
Real Nice KK, I should be able to comment next year, upon getting fruit.  I like the light set up, looks like they get a good amount of light and heat.
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rcantor

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Reply with quote  #3 
Nice work!  I did that for a Panache once and the figs were great.
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Reply with quote  #4 
Nice, Keith.  I'm married and can also do things like that.  In my shop, that is. :)
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KK

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Reply with quote  #5 

Quote:
Originally Posted by armando93223
Real Nice KK, I should be able to comment next year, upon getting fruit.  I like the light set up, looks like they get a good amount of light and heat.

 

Those bulbs are mini ovens, burn at 500 – 800 degrees and maybe more. Right now that’s a 250 watt, rather small. I think I’m going to move some of my smaller real BM’s that are loaded with fruit in there, raise the light a little and put in a 400 watt. I don’t know if you’ve ever grown under lights but it’s a good idea to level out the canopy so all get approx the same light. I have barbell weights on the floor with cord pulling down the branches to kind of level them out otherwise the taller might burn and the lower will not get proper light. You have a “BM” from Portugal? I’m not sure this is really BM. It might be black and from Madeira but that doesn’t make it Black Madeira.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcantor
Nice work!  I did that for a Panache once and the figs were great.

 

I’m hoping :)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Nice, Keith.  I'm married and can also do things like that.  In my shop, that is. :)

 

That’s in my living room  :)

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armando93223

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Reply with quote  #6 
KK, Can you expand on your Black Madiera. I haven't read every post on here so I may of missed something. Is there more than one Black Madiera...??? 
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johnnyq627

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Reply with quote  #7 
Keith that certainly looks like Black Madeira or Fico Preto to me! Very nice find, let me know when offsprings are available ;)
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rafaelissimmo

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Reply with quote  #8 
KK

This begs the question as to what is more important when we alter the environment of a late-ripening cultivar: light, heat or both. Obviously, both is better. But I have heard a lot of talk here suggesting warmth is the more important of the two factors. As an example, I can keep my greenhouse toasty and in fact am doing this right now with CdD and a UCD BM. But the fact is it only gets about 4-5 hours direct sunlight this time of year in the greenhouse. Will that negatively affect the fruit ripening? I have also read a post by Herman stating that greenhouse ripened fruit is not very good. It will be interesting to compare notes between our differing methods. Let us know your thoughts. And keep us posted. Thank you.

Rafael

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johnnyq627

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rafaelissimmo
KK

This begs the question as to what is more important when we alter the environment of a late-ripening cultivar: light, heat or both. Obviously, both is better. But I have heard a lot of talk here suggesting warmth is the more important of the two factors. As an example, I can keep my greenhouse toasty and in fact am doing this right now with CdD and a UCD BM. But the fact is it only gets about 4-5 hours direct sunlight this time of year in the greenhouse. Will that negatively affect the fruit ripening? I have also read a post by Herman stating that greenhouse ripened fruit is not very good. It will be interesting to compare notes between our differing methods. Let us know your thoughts. And keep us posted. Thank you.

Rafael


Ill agree with Herman's points. My greenhouse ripened fruits have been a shadow of the ones ripened outside. The greenhouse stays warm, so can't blame heat. Light levels have been getting lower and humidity much higher. I think the lack of sun makes the figs less sweet and the humidity waters them down (and often makes them explode).

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FiggyFrank

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Reply with quote  #10 
I'm giving my Preto extra care on the colder nights.  Sure does look like BM.

1018142204a.jpg 

1018142204b.jpg 


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Frank
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Reply with quote  #11 
Maybe it has something to do with direct sun light being used by the leaves to produce sugars and other chemicals needed for the fruit to fully ripen with great taste
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Jarrett
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Reply with quote  #12 
True, Jarrett. Photosynthesis converts energy from sunlight to sugars. I think more or less heat will speed up or slow down the process, but amount of sunlight would have more to do with the flavor.
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Reply with quote  #13 
This is what I ate the most perfect fruit. 
If you can get such maturity.
P1000743.jpg 

armando93223

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Reply with quote  #14 
TSANG: That is a espactacular photo. I am saving this to my computer, Will make a print for my living room.....We have some great photographers here.!!!
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GreenFin

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Reply with quote  #15 
Very cool, KK!

And I agree with Armando, there are some terrific photographers (and tree sculptors) here at F4F.

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WillsC

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Reply with quote  #16 
I have one as well.....to me the plant looks identical to the 3 Black Madeira I have planted next to it except it has no signs of FMV.   Will know on the fruit in a couple weeks.
twobrothersgarden

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Reply with quote  #17 
Would anyone be willing to sell me a black madeira? I live in california.
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Henry, Brawley California

KK

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Reply with quote  #18 

Quote:
Originally Posted by armando93223
KK, Can you expand on your Black Madeira. I haven't read every post on here so I may of missed something. Is there more than one Black Madiera...??? 

 

I far as I know there was only 1 but a few years back someone on eBay asked me which version I had

 

 

 

 

This was very rich and delicious. If its not Black Madeira its pretty close. For now I will refer to it as Portugal Black Madeira. The fellow had several different types; one was flatter but he called them all Black Madeira

 

 

 

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armando93223

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Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks KK, with the extreme dry heat and RKN problem, I decided to be safe and put my Black Madiera away from the others and put into a light shade. I decided that saving the tree was more important than the fruit this year.......I believe the Madiera I have probably came from Jon of Ecanto or UC Davis...????
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KK

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by armando93223
I believe the Madiera I have probably came from Jon of Ecanto or UC Davis...????

 

I asked Jon years ago, I could be wrong but I don’t think his was from UCDavies

 

4 year old Jon's BM 




2 year old Portugal Black Madeira 


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MGorski

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Reply with quote  #21 
That is a rich and juicy looking fig Keith, we're you able to get the other types of Black Maderia he had? It would be interesting to hear about those too.

Mike in Hanover, VA

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KK

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGorski
That is a rich and juicy looking fig Keith, we're you able to get the other types of Black Maderia he had? It would be interesting to hear about those too. Mike in Hanover, VA


I was only able to get one of his "Black Madeira"



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Reply with quote  #23 
Hi KK,
That is a productive tree !
Congrats on a good acquisition !

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scott_ga

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Reply with quote  #24 
Here the UC Davis Black Madeira doesn't usually have much of a neck when ripe. They are still ripening. black madeira on branch.JPG 

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Reply with quote  #25 
Does anyone know how BM would do in the Midwest
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Vladis

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Reply with quote  #26 
Я имею саженец этого года, название неизвестно . Но фига ,которую я фотографировал осенью 2013 года выглядит ,как Чёрная Мадейра из US Davis. Инж.Таи.Фига..jpg 

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scott_ga

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Reply with quote  #27 
I have a seedling of this year, the name is unknown. But the guys that I photographed in the autumn 2013 looks like black from Madeira..

The above from google translate..

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Grasa

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Reply with quote  #28 
Vladis...that picture of yours is incredible... wow.. I love it.
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Vladis

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Reply with quote  #29 
Граса, благодарю за положительный отзыв. Ещё фото этой фиги ,разрез. Инж.Тай.Ф-Разр..jpg 

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scott_ga

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Reply with quote  #30 
Graça, thank you for your positive feedback. More photos of the figs, cut.
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KK

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Reply with quote  #31 

Just picked these. Fantastic for figs ripened under lights. Portugal Black Madeira and Jon’s Black Madeira were both rich, juicy and full of berry flavor but they tasted a little bit different. Maybe the lights.

Portugal Black Madeira

[image] 

[image] 

[image] 

[image]    

 

 

Jon’s Black Madeira

[image] 

[image] 

 


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FiggyFrank

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Reply with quote  #32 
Those look excellent, KK.
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Frank
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Reply with quote  #33 
KK, were you able to compare black madeira vs black madeira island figs under normal ripening conditions to rule out the grow lights as a factor in the slight taste difference?
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Reply with quote  #34 
I had a BM from maderia island too. Was 2 feet tall and growing like crazy.
Then the USDA got mine.
Then they got my wuhan as well.....

Glad yours is doing well.

Nice looking fruit.

Have fun

Doug

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adoresfigs45

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Reply with quote  #35 
ah the vigilant usda    they very politely removed my sumaki and golden thai mango seed   still in its mailing pouch.       sigh
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Reply with quote  #36 
KK's Portugal Black Madeira looks like Lampo's Sofeno Preto.
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/sof%C3%8Ano-preto-6497657?highlight=preto&pid=1279294071

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Figinfever
KK's Portugal Black Madeira looks like Lampo's Sofeno Preto. http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/sof%C3%8Ano-preto-6497657?highlight=preto&pid=1279294071


Dan,

Sofeno Preto is a distinct fig... no confusion with Black Madeira (US) or Figo Preto (Madeira Islands)

However if you say .. 'Black Madeira looks like Lampo's Violeta', there   I say You are 100%  RIGHT!
and this because Violeta generated those two figs  (Preto and BM).
Probably centuries ago Violeta migrated to Madeira just like many other Portuguese figs which are still around in Madeira ... Then one day from Madeira it found the way to jump to California where he changed its name from Preto or Figo Preto to Black Madeira

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/violeta-aka-figo-preto-aka-black-madeira-6456224?highlight=violeta&pid=1285509974

Francisco
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Figinfever

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Reply with quote  #38 
Sofeno Preto is a distinct fig; I did not mean to imply otherwise, Francisco.

My observation is that KK's Portugal Black Madeira pics looks slightly different from Jon's Black Madeira pics above. Also, KK reported above that it tastes a bit different than Black Madeira. Perhaps it's because of different growing conditions or perhaps they are different varieties altogether since we know that Jon's Black Madeira is the Black Madeira and that KK's fig, mentioned here, is a black variety that is from the island of Madeira, Portugal.

I could very well be wrong but KK's Portugal Black Madeira interior pics are more similar to Sofeno Preto interior pic than to Jon's Black Madeira interior pics.

If anyone is growing The Black Madeira and KK's Portugal Black Madeira side by side, report ripened figs that look the same and taste the same, then I will be convinced they are the same.

Francisco, your post about Violeta being the direct ancestor to Figo Preto and Black Madeira is very convincing, even after the fourth read. It is one of the reasons why I ordered Figo Preto and Black Madeira for next year and looking for a source to buy cuttings or rooted Violeta; I want to see how far they drifted from each other in taste and looks when the environmental factor is zeroed out as best as possible.

I have seen reports of collectors having both Figo Preto and Black Madeira say they are the same and others say they are similar but different. To my knowledge, there isn't a report about the two and Violeta at the same time. Of course, they are overwhelmingly reported in the forum posts as as top line/ stand out delicious as well. : )

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Jsacadura

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Reply with quote  #39 
I believe Francisco is trying to do precisely that, Dan. Growing the 3 strains side to side and compare them in their native region. I don't know if he managed to get the 2 US strains though.

To be honest, i want to do that test myself in the future. I already have Violeta thanks to Francisco, but finding Figo Preto and even Black Madeira strains over here in not easy.

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Reply with quote  #40 
I hope to find out in the next couple of months, as well.

Black Madeira (Encanto Strain)
IMG_4341.JPG 
Black Fig Madeira KK
IMG_4342.JPG 
Figo Preto
IMG_4344.JPG 
Violeta
IMG_4346.JPG 


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Gary in CA 9A  Seeking Peace and figs for all
Figinfever

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Reply with quote  #41 
Ahh. It is ironic that they have origins there, migrate over here, and now, because of legislative barriers and commercial farming, are disappearing in their native land. I wish there is a way for at least 3 of us to have the material to test out these 3 varieties and share the results. How difficult is it over there to get phytocertification and other paperworks to import from the US? If it is not too hard, I would like to contribute in getting Figo Preto and Black Madeira over there. Greenfin's website offers bareroot plants next year if ordered this year and also phytocertification.
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

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Figinfever

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgary
I hope to find out in the next couple of months, as well.

Black Madeira (Encanto Strain)
IMG_4341.JPG 
Black Fig Madeira KK
IMG_4342.JPG 
Figo Preto
IMG_4344.JPG 
Violeta
IMG_4346.JPG 


Thank you, Gary. Great minds think alike and it looks like you will be the first to accomplish it on this side of the pond! : )

If possible please copy this in a new thread. I have wondered about this issue ever since I stumbled upon Lambo's posts and later KK's thread. I'm sure others have wondered too and will find this informative as well.

Edit: You are totally awesome. I'm so excited!

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Reply with quote  #43 
Thanks, Dan, but I think Harvey C has these as well, and his will ripen sooner than mine. I will start a new thread on these, and update as they ripen.The Violeta may be a bit later, as it is in ground.
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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgary
Thanks, Dan, but I think Harvey C has these as well, and his will ripen sooner than mine. I will start a new thread on these, and update as they ripen.The Violeta may be a bit later, as it is in ground.


I didn't know that, but that is all the better to have more case data. Thank you.

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Jsacadura

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Reply with quote  #45 
Gary,

Since you are comparing all 4 strains can you tell me if there is a tendency for Black Madeira and Figo Preto to have mainly 1 lobe and 3 lobe leaves when they are young, while Violeta and KK strain seem to have 3 lobe and 5 lobe leaves from a very young age?

I asked this because i have Violeta from Francisco grafted and the leaves of my graft don't show a single 1 lobe leaf (apparently a tell tale sign of UC Davis BM reported by many people - hence the great controversy on this thread - https://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/black-madiera-leaves-question-7387766?highlight=black+madeira&pid=1290157511 that even reported a "wrong" variety being sold by JFE - i wonder how that ended up. Did your brother's tree ended up being BM or not, Nick?).

The majority of the leaves in my graft are 5 lobed ones with some (not many) with 3 lobes. Not a single one lobe leave in sight.

Quite curious. It could be that the grafts have a tendency to "bypass" the 1 lobe leaf that sometimes is associated with a more juvenile state so, Gary, i'm wondering if you noticed that difference in the various strain leaves.
It could be a difference of Violeta to the other strains BM and Figo Preto which photos always show 1 lobe and 3 lobe leafs.





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Jaime - Zone 9b - near Caldas da Rainha - Portugal
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figgary

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Reply with quote  #46 
Hello Jaime,

all but the Black Madeira have mostly single lobed leaves so far. All seemed to have started with single lobed leaves, and develop 3s and some 5s, as they grow. My older Black Madeira has many leaves that are 3 and 5 lobes, with fewer single leaves. I got my KK strain and Violeta as very young plants, I did not start them from cuttings, so, I have no pics of them from the start. Looking at them now, though, their lowest leaves seem to be mostly single lobe. Here are 2 pics of a Preto and Black Madeira, which I recently started from cuttings, and both show single, and 3 lobed leaves from the start.

IMG_4347.JPG 
IMG_4348.JPG 


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Jsacadura

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Reply with quote  #47 
Thanks for the answer and photos, Gary.

I see that your young Black Madeira and Preto show several 3 lobed leafs from a young age, as Violeta does - like in this post from Francisco - http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1279895320&postcount=13&forum=0

I am still a bit puzzled as why some BM trees still show so many single lobed leafs, even after several years and so very few 5 lobed ones if any, like the tree in this post - http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1287030593&postcount=9&forum=0

photo by FrozenJoe

Black Madeira1_folhas4b.jpg 


while my Violeta graft has many 5 lobed with fat fingers and 3 lobed ones with just a few months and not a single one lobed leaf. Maybe the graft makes it skip it's infancy?

Violeta_Inglesa_Agosto_2016_folhas.JPG 
Meanwhile,  this is how a 10 year tree of Violeta looks like (i believe it was Francisco that published this photo, but i can't find the thread) and, unfortunately, i can't blow up the image (low resolution). But it seems it has lots of 3 and 5 lobed leafs, don't seem to notice a single one lobed leaf.

violeta6b_folhas_arvores_com 10 anos.jpg


A bit puzzling, that's why i was trying to determine if it's a diference between Violeta and the other BM strains that seem to show so many one lobed leafs over there, but i don't think it's conclusive either way.

Oh well, in the end it's the same fig, and what a fig so, ultimately, who cares about leaf shapes...


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Reply with quote  #48 
There was a thread with information on the subject where a few pictures of Violeta leaves are shown to respond and help our fellow member Tam on his metaphysical magics

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/violeta-still-strong-6569728?highlight=violeta&pid=1281525606

I do appreciate all your concerns about all these leaves but for my taste, the fruit is by far, much..much.. better! (no offense)

cheers
Francisco
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Jsacadura

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Reply with quote  #49 
You are so right, Francisco.

 I was just curious about the apparent difference between young BM and Violeta regarding single lobed leaves. In the end, after all my questions, i finally reach the same conclusion as you. Who cares about leaves when what matters is the excellent fruit of this cultivar.

But it's only human, this need we have, when we get a new variety that hasn't produced yet, to try and confirm, using leaf shapes, that we have the right one.

Not that i have any doubt regarding your Violeta, mind you. I have the most complete confidence on your cuttings. I was just curious on the "different" leaf patterns of the various strains - if indeed they are not the same fig, as it seems.


But, when we talk about cultivar identification from tell tale signs, i can say that, for instance, i was very pleased when i confirmed i had a real Sbayi, when i saw the red scars on the young stems, one or two years ahead of it producing any fruit.

So i understand the concern and the need to compare leaf patterns. For instance, when people buy a BM from JBF and the leaves seem different from the usual pattern, its understandable that they raise the question - Do I have the right variety?

Nobody likes to wait 3-4 years, sometimes passing good opportunities of getting the wanted cultivars, only to find out that someone has made a mistake at the store. But people also need to understand that leaves do change with the age of the tree and that, sometimes, they have no reason to worry.

Thanks,




 

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Jaime - Zone 9b - near Caldas da Rainha - Portugal
Wish List: Sofeno Claro, Preto do Calvário, Belmandil, Castelhana Branca, Pardinho, Coll de Dame de Ciutat, Marabout, Paratjal, Bournabat, Ponte Tresa.
Timo

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Quote:
 my Violeta graft has many 5 lobed with fat fingers and 3 lobed ones with just a few months and not a single one lobed leaf. Maybe the graft makes it skip it's infancy? 


Jaime, my grafted Figo Preto has only single lobed and 3-lobed leaves so far, just like the rooted FP cuttings. Here is a picture from 6 weeks ago. 

P6221409 - kopie.JPG 

For me grafting doesn't seem to help skipping the juvenile phase with single lobed or 3-lobed leaves. I have no idea why your Violeta has mostly 3- and 5-lobed leaves, but I think that the shape of the leaves can be determined by a number of factors (age, pruning / pinching, growing conditions (especially light), etc.). I wouldn't worry to much about the shape of the leaves when your plant is still very young, but I understand your concerns about comparing leaf patterns.

I am happy for you that you managed to graft Violeta. It seems to be one of the best common figs! 




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