Register  |   | 
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #1 
An experiment this spring. Like the wedge grafts I tried, (see separate post) this would have worked much better in April (in paradise - later in less desirable climates) rather than February.

Again, I used caprifigs for rootstocks and Black Madeira for scion.










__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
jsvand5

Registered:
Posts: 135
Reply with quote  #2 
Looks good. Maybe you could try it using Ischia Black as the scion onto a vigorous rootstock. Maybe it could help with Ischia Blacks growth problems? Might be worth a try as an experiment.
__________________
John
FL
Z9
nelson20vt

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,858
Reply with quote  #3 
Very Nice Jon, Jon did you use the parafilm tape? and if so do you cover the bud with the tape or leave it exposed.

Thanks

__________________
Mississauga, ON, Canada Z5B/6A
OttawanZ5

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,544
Reply with quote  #4 
Jon, looks fun. Is it just for fun (F4F) or is it for a reason/purpose like better growth.
Sometimes when I think of doing such graft for a potted plant then I say to myself why not start with three plants in the same one pot, one black fruited one purple and one white just like what they call '3 plants in one hole'. It will be like a bush form with three branches and sharing resources will make them grow like dwarf. It is just my thinking.

__________________
Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #5 
This one was wrapped with the green nursery tape, with just the bud exposed.

This one was "for fun" and experience. But the point was to turn a caprifig into something edible.useful, since I already had the caprifigs established.


__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
Bass

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,435
Reply with quote  #6 

Good job Jon. I've done chip budding successfully, and looked just like yours. However, after it grow the wind broke it right off. It will need support at least for the first year when that bud grows into a branch.


__________________
Pennsylvania http://www.treesofjoy.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trees-of-Joy/110193909021138
Dieseler

Registered:
Posts: 8,235
Reply with quote  #7 
Jon, i know nothing about this process but i like to ask you a few questions please.

The black maderia is the green shoot i see  ?

If so once that shoot grows will that new growth still be the exact same as a true black maderia or will the rootstock its attached to mix in to its dna and change it somehow.

Thanks in advance.






jsvand5

Registered:
Posts: 135
Reply with quote  #8 

Dieseler, it will be the exact same thing. Most all fruit trees in nurseries are grafted. For most types of fruit trees it is usually done to get production quicker (instead of raising seedlings) and to be able to exactly replicate trees that make high quality fruit. I would think the only advantages to grafting figs (unless you are limited for space and want to multigraft a tree) would be to graft a tree of a weak growing cultivar to a vigorous rootstock in hopes of better growth or if you have a tree that produces poor quality figs you could top work the tree into a better tasting variety while still keeping the benifits of the big established root system of the rootstock tree.


__________________
John
FL
Z9
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #9 
Bass, Yes the actual graft connection is only as thick as the green cambium layer under the bark, so it will need support for a season or two until there are more growth to thicken up the connection. The same thing is true with most grafting techniques, which is why I am not taking the green nursery tape off of the wedge graft fora year or so. (see other thread).

Martin, the green portion is the Black Madeira. Grafting is a type of "cloning" and works very much like a kidney transplant in people. The person stays who they are, and the kidney continues to have the genetic makeup of the donor. That difference is why you need anti-rejection drugs in order to keep your body from fighting against the donated kidney. Here the rootstock is the person, and the small chip of material (a bud and some surrounding wood) is the equivalent of the kidney. It is installed in the recipient rootstock and allowed to heal together and function.

There is the possibility of rejection, which is why in citrus or stone fruits (especially) there are trials done to make sure that there is long term compatibility. It is a real bummer if you graft and plant 10,000 trees in an orchard, and 5 or 10 years later an incompatibility causes top of the tree to fall off at the graft union. That is not really an issue, here, but can happen.

The rootstock retains it's DNA and characteristics, as does the grafted portion. Now, if you are somewhere where your tree freezes to the ground, when it grows back, it will once again be a rootstock and will need to be regrafted.


__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
Dieseler

Registered:
Posts: 8,235
Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks for the information as thats what i needed to know.

Since seeing this i had thought about one day (next season) grafting a ischia black onto something such as my ronde or dark port 2 fast grower and then 1 day propagate that shoot when time would be right by airlayer.
 But according to what i read here it would retain the same habits the ischia shoot would be stunted just like on the mother plant most likely ?


paully22

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #11 
hmmn, tempting enough to try it on my Osborne Prolific/Latarrula using Desert King.
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #12 
Martin,

The rootstock DOES affect the scion that is grafted onto it. That is generally how dwarf fruit trees are made - by using a rootstock that "controls" what is grafted to it, essentially restricting growth. In Mangoes, if you have a rootstock that was from a "super seed", the entire plant will have much more vigor throughout its lifetime. 

So, a vigorous rootstock might help overcome the issues with Black Ischia by imparting more vigor.

tmc2009

Rootstocks, in general (think citrus, stone fruits, nut trees, etc) are chosen for a variety of reasons - often for the soil conditions into which they will be planted. Sandy soils, heavy clay soils, etc, need different rootstocks.

When looking for a rootstock for figs, soils would be a factor, vigor would be an issue, RKN and other disease resistance would be a factor, etc.


__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
snaglpus

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,196
Reply with quote  #13 
Jon, like Martin I am very interested in grafting.  But Jon help me out here, is chip-bud grafting the same as T-budding?  Have you tried Whip-and-Tongue grafting?  Like Martin, I want to try grafting a Black Ischia on a very vigorous growing tree like LSU Purple or LSU Gold.  I have a book that gives complete instructions on how to graft including different techniques.  Dennis

__________________
Dennis
Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a 

pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #14 
Dennis, chip budding and t-budding are NOT the same. In chip budding, you out out a piece of bark, and some wood. In T-budding you insert a small piece of bark, with a bud, in-behind or underneath the bark after making a T shaped cut which generates two flaps.

I will upload some pix in a little while. A gardening friend of mine was doing a presentation on grafting, so he whittled, and I took pix and put the PowerPoint together for him. So I have the pix, but need to size them and upload to my server.
 

__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #15 
These were done with mulberry twigs, but the technique is the same. It can only be done, realistically when the bark is "slipping", which means that you can separate it from the cambium layer underneath with ease, which is usually the case when the plant being grafted TO is ACTIVELY growing.

T-budding - the T-shaped cut in the bark.



Peeling back the bark.



T-cut and bug ready for inserting.



Back side of bud. A little more wood than normal, but this was tough wood.



Begin inserting under the two flaps.



Inserted further.



Using the grafting knife to push the bud further in.



Almost done.



All the way in. The bud must drop in below the top of the T-cut in order to make good contact between the cambium layer of the rootstock and the bud.



Wrapping.



Finished.








__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #16 
Chip-budding.

Cutting the chip out of the rootstock. Note the undercut, which allows the chip to be "locked in" to the correct position, esp. during wrapping.





Finished cut.





Scion piece cut to match the chip which was removed.



Inserting the "chip".



Inserted.





Wrapping.








__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #17 
This is a saddle graft, where the "pointy" piece is the rootstock, and the split piece is the scion. The scion drapes over the rootstock, sort of like a saddle on a horse.

Wedge grafting is exactly the same, except upside down from these pictures, with the "pointy" piece being the scion. More like driving a wedge into a piece of fire wood, to split it.










__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
Dieseler

Registered:
Posts: 8,235
Reply with quote  #18 

Well i want to thank you Jon and members for this information.

Its worth a shot from reading Jons post #13


I have several younger plants in mind to try to T-Bud a ischia bud to .
I like the idea of useing a bud and not a shoot if i can catch a bud emerging on my ischia plant which is small and only has 2 shoots . If not i wait till next spring when they emerge, as scion is too difficult for me to come by.
It broke dormancy a while back but i'm going to check it tomorrow to see if any other buds might be coming .
If i can patiently carve tobacco pipes and ole fashion shaving brush handles i can do this as i think im good with my hands .

Italian cheek kisses to "Jon" for takeing the time to post those pictures which i now understand the cutting that needs to be done.
When i do this in near future or next spring i will post the pictures.

pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #19 
I should add that a good, sharp grafting knife is worth the investment!!  I have done some grafting with a fresh, sharp blade in my exacto knife, but it only has the stiffness for small wood and soft woods, such as apple.

Make sure you know where the knife will go when it slips, or you will lose some skin AND flesh. If they are sharp enough for cutting the wood, they are sharp enough to do amputations and fillets.

__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
paully22

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #20 
Very interesting. Thanks for the pic's. Jon,  I suppose hosting wood should be at least a year old. Thanks.
Axier

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
I suppose hosting wood should be at least a year old


I have done tons of grafts in figs (99 % of them chip budding), and according to my experience, green good is also good for chip budding, but it must be hard enough. Moreover, the graft union is much faster on green wood.

Jon, excellent pictures, I know that they are more difficult to make than they seem. That black background is very helpful.

__________________
Axier
Basque Country Z9
Bass

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,435
Reply with quote  #22 
Great picture tutorial jon.
I see you chose dormant chip budding using a Pakistan mulberry. Have you also tried this with green chip budding?
Jon is right about using the right knife. My first attempt at grafting was an Avocado using some sharp kitchen knife... I ended up slicing a piece of my finger.
Here's another type of grafting that is useful on fruit trees during the dormant season http://www.treesofjoy.com/grafting.htm


__________________
Pennsylvania http://www.treesofjoy.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trees-of-Joy/110193909021138
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #23 
The point of the pictures was to show technique - so when my friend did the grafts, the material we used was not relevant - just that it was available, and in this case, "slipping". I have not tried greenwood.

My friend also did whip, whip and tongue, bark inlay and bark grafting examples as well.

I use whip and tongue wherever possible because of the nice way it locks the to pieces together and increases the surface area of cambium contact. It is great for prunus and cherimoyas. It is one of the easiest to do. This time around, I went with the wedge graft because it seemed more suitable to the fig wood I had.



__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
snaglpus

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,196
Reply with quote  #24 
Ditto to what Martin said!  Jon your powerpoint pics are so detailed better than my book.  I will be printing these out and saving the file for future use.  Five gold stars and hat off to Jon!  Dennis

__________________
Dennis
Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a 

KyleW

Registered:
Posts: 32
Reply with quote  #25 
Jon-
I have been grafting for 2 yrs now but never grafted figs.
I did a lot of research before doing my first grafts (mostly citrus) and I have to comment that I never saw better photos.  These are exceptional!
I have wondered about fig grafting- does the latex ooze out and cause any problems?

Kyle
paully22

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #26 
Axier --- Thanks for the info.
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #27 
Kyle, I had heard that the latex was an issue. I didn't have one, but I did these when they were not actively growing (they had leaves but were not pushing much sap) which probably decreased the latex issue.

__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
ejp3

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 671
Reply with quote  #28 

Tremendous thread Jon.  To me the simplest seems to be the wedge graft which is called a cleft graft in Basses video?  It looks like it really "locks" the scion in.  And it appears that all further growth of that branch will be the new variety.  In chip budding arent you just getting one side branch to become the new variety and the  part further up stays what the rootstock is?  For me it seems that the chip budding wouldn't give me enough of the new variety since only a side shoot of new variety would be established. 


__________________
Ed NY zone 7
Wish list  CDD Blanca/Negra

drivewayfarmer

Registered:
Posts: 774
Reply with quote  #29 
Ed ,
Once the t-bud or chip bud heals , you cut back to it to get it to grow and become the new top .
Kerry

__________________
Kerry Zone 5 NH
Wish list :Galicia Negra , Col de Dame Blanca/Negra  .
ejp3

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 671
Reply with quote  #30 

Thanks Kerry but that seems like such a waste of time.  Also the wedge graft looks a lot easier to do and seems more secure.  Great thread!


__________________
Ed NY zone 7
Wish list  CDD Blanca/Negra

saxonfig

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,374
Reply with quote  #31 
I must have missed this thread when it was first posted. Great thread and great pictures Jon! Seeing it done really does make all the difference when it comes to something like this. Thank you for this great thread Jon.

I've been doing some research on grafting lately. I have (had) a pear tree that was badly damaged during our last big ice storm. There was only about 3' of the tree/stump that was still standing after a huge maple tree branch fell on it. During the clean-up, after the ice storm, it was cut back to the ground.

Now there are a few pieces of re-growth from the rootstock. So, I'd like to practice on this with some other pear varieties. Maybe even some Asian pears or whatever really. But it would be nice to start a good variety in place of the old one.

I was looking at that video on Bass's site recently and really learned alot. I didn't realize that there are just so many different ways to do grafts. If you haven't seen the video mentioned you owe it to yourself to check it out. If you follow that same individual, who's doing the demo, around youtube a bit you'll find that he has alot of other very good vids of several other grafting methods clearly demonstrated (not as clear as Jon's pics but still pretty good material :) ).

Here's a link to one of his videos demonstrating a "rind" graft:


If anyone else has some pictures of their own grafting successes or failures it would be great to see them.

I am now inspired to do some grafting of my own! Anyone have some dormant asian pear scion for sale :-) ?

__________________
Fig Well And Prosper!

Bill - SW KY. Zone 6b. 36.5N 
I'm fruitnut on ebay.
pitangadiego

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 5,516
Reply with quote  #32 
Ed,

Driveway is right. You remove the top of the rootstock later on.

Every grafting technique has a reason for existing. Some techniques are suitable to more than one application, and some are very specific. One of the benefits of chip budding or T-budding is the minimal use of scion, e.g. one bud. Wedge, whip, and whip and tongue, for example, generally use more scion (more buds) per graft, and thus produce fewer trees per unit of scion. When T-budding a citrus, for example, you need the top growth of the rootstock to provide energy and nutrition to the plant while your graft is healing in and getting started.

Is it the best method for figs? Don't know, but this was done as a proof of concept, so that people who have situations where it might be appropriate or useful would know that it works, and how to do it. I did some wedge grafts, at the same time.

If someone were to discover a nematode resistant fig variety, grafting of figs would almost instantly become a widely used technique, for example.





__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
http://figs4fun.com
http://webebananas.com
"pitangadiego" everywhere
ejp3

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 671
Reply with quote  #33 
Bill, I hooked up up someone on gardenwebs fruit and orchard forum who is trading some asian pears for fig and paw paws.  Let me ask him if he wants to trade with you.  He is always looking for different fruit tree scion.  If he agrees will send you an e-mail.  P.S. I am grafting the asian pears onto a seckel pear tree.

Ed

__________________
Ed NY zone 7
Wish list  CDD Blanca/Negra

saxonfig

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,374
Reply with quote  #34 
Sounds great Ed. Thanks! 

In the way of fig cuttings, I still have a few Hardy Chicago and plenty of Italian Honey. Maybe a rooted cutting or two of other stuff from last season...

As for Pawpaw, just some wild stock that I can get plenty of. Plenty of wild seed too but not until next fall. 

__________________
Fig Well And Prosper!

Bill - SW KY. Zone 6b. 36.5N 
I'm fruitnut on ebay.
elin

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,312
Reply with quote  #35 
Bumping this for some help.

I would like to do the T bud grafting, I have many cutting that i want to transplant. the cuttings do not have the fruit/growth buds protruding and are dormant- will this work? lower chances?



__________________
Eli ,Israel ,Zone 10? Too humid and hot, yada yada yada
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1298814119
Growing
: Sbayi, Hmadi, Black Portugal, Black Brazil,Excell, Flanders, Hmari , RDB, Niagra Black,Natalina, CDDN,Maya, Preto Torres, Preto Arge
lampo

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,376
Reply with quote  #36 
Hi Eli

Do you mean dormant cuttings from the fridge ??
For summer  'T budding' you need sap to be flowing  on scions and stock.

Francisco
Portugal
elin

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,312
Reply with quote  #37 
Thanks Francisco
Can the bud chips survive a 30 minute drive?
Do i have any graft options with dormant wood?

__________________
Eli ,Israel ,Zone 10? Too humid and hot, yada yada yada
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1298814119
Growing
: Sbayi, Hmadi, Black Portugal, Black Brazil,Excell, Flanders, Hmari , RDB, Niagra Black,Natalina, CDDN,Maya, Preto Torres, Preto Arge
elin

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,312
Reply with quote  #38 
Ok, Did about 10 T grafts in 30 min. The recieving tree was droping figs wasp or not i am pissed :)
The bark at the base is about 4 inches diameter so it has good base.
The scion wood sap was a bit dry side but from scions taken from the mother tree hour before the graft .


Used the back side of electrical tape ..

Hope it works



Attached Images
jpeg image.jpg (165.45 KB, 38 views)


__________________
Eli ,Israel ,Zone 10? Too humid and hot, yada yada yada
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1298814119
Growing
: Sbayi, Hmadi, Black Portugal, Black Brazil,Excell, Flanders, Hmari , RDB, Niagra Black,Natalina, CDDN,Maya, Preto Torres, Preto Arge

lampo

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,376
Reply with quote  #39 
Hello Eli

This video (in French) deals with summer T budding, is very instructive and gives ideas on how to preserve fresh -green- scions until you are ready to bud



As regards to your questions on dormant wood, I have to say that I do not think it in shape for 'T' budding now... but,
You may re-hydrate those scions and try 'chip budding' selecting the best buds for the exercise
or.. root them.

Francisco
Portugal
Jerry_M

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 350
Reply with quote  #40 
Enjoyed this post very much. I think i'll try a graft on my Texas White Everbearing.
__________________
Jerry, Canyon Lake, TX 8b 
lampo

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,376
Reply with quote  #41 
Eli,

The fellow on this clip is doing, I believe, what you intend to do , i.e., 'T' budding an existing fig tree with green scions.
You may use the system shown on the previous video to bring the scion green branches near the rootstock.




Good luck
Francisco
Portugal
chucklikestofish

Registered:
Posts: 1,021
Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitangadiego
An experiment this spring. Like the wedge grafts I tried, (see separate post) this would have worked much better in April (in paradise - later in less desirable climates) rather than February.

Again, I used caprifigs for rootstocks and Black Madeira for scion.

[FP518-99]

[FP518-98]

[FP518-97]

[FP518-96]

~what is the advantage of doing this ? would you now get both figs from one tree >?? can i graft 4 or 5 diff varieties into one tree root stock?? don't want to seem dumb but learned layering and rooting well,just need to learn grafting. thanks for any answers you have for me.~
rcantor

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,851
Reply with quote  #43 
The key advantage is maximizing the amount of grafts you get from the scion.  If you have a 3" piece of scion with 2 nodes you can do a wedge graft and get 1 new branch out of it or T bud each node and get 2 branches.  If you want a fruit salad tree you can have that or, once the graft takes you can cut off the top of the rootstock above the graft.
__________________
Zone 6, MO

Wish list:
Martineca Rimada, Galicia Negra, Fioroni Ruvo, De La Reina - Pons, Tauro, BFF, Sefrawi, Sbayi, Mavra Sika , Fillaciano Bianco, Corynth, Souadi, Acciano Purple, LSU Tiger, LSU Red, Cajun Gold, BB-10 any great tasting fig
Smyfigs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,631
Reply with quote  #44 
Very interesting!  I really want to learn more about grafting....I need time...time...time to do more with my fig cuttings :-D
__________________

Meg-Hardiness Zone 10a

Looking for...

Socorro Blk
Jolly Tiger
Lamperia Preta
Herschtetten
St. Jean
Black Ischia

"The best way to show my gratitude is to accept everything, even my problems, with joy." ~ Mother Teresa  
"Do not pass by a man in need for you may be the hand of God to him." ~Proverbs 3:27~  
"He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted." ~Job 5:4

 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.