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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #1 
Okay, I'm trying things simple this year.  I got a few thousand of these pots (3" square by 9" tall, left over from winegrape plants in the area) and am rooting cuttings in Promix, under a grow light, on propagation mats set at 85F, recently lowered to 80F,  Room stays 75F or above.  This cutting was started 24 days ago.

[image] 

[IMAG0744] 

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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OttawanZ5

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Reply with quote  #2 
Looks good after 24 days.
Maintaining rooms above 70F while max outside temp  is -27F is becoming cost prohibitive here for the next couple of months (except when grandchildren visit).

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Reply with quote  #3 
Nice Harvey, thanks for sharing. Happy New Year!
By the way, did you have a chance to taste the Sequoia Fig? What is your opinion of it?
greenfig

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Reply with quote  #4 
Nice!
I tried the same but keeping the cuttings outside in our nice LA sun. Out of 10, none died! Since it is colder than in your room, my leaves are smaller or just starting to brake out but the cuttings look quite happy. I water from the bottom and covered the top with a fine orchid bark.

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Reply with quote  #5 
Great Job Harvey!! Looks like you have the right combination!! : )
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Rewton

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Reply with quote  #6 
Harvey, which type of ProMix do you use?  I have a large bag of pro-mix bx that I use for potting up rooted cuttings but I typically add pine fines and perlite to it.
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Reply with quote  #7 
Havey, that stuff works very good! I use it but it is very expensive. I got lucky last year (sounds funny saying that!) and found 8 bales at Big Lots for 70% off! Each bale only cost me $7 bucks! I mix it with Pete's Potting mix. The kind I got is ProMix BX.
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ADelmanto

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Reply with quote  #8 
I have these pots except they are 4x4x9" http://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php
I do not have a grow room (yes I'm jealous!)
I plan on starting this year in root riot and transitioning to those pots w/ 50% pro mix 50% pine bark fines.
Good luck and Happy New Year!!

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bullet08

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Reply with quote  #9 
Happy New Year, harvey. those look like they are on their way to being good trees.
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #10 
I should have mentioned that I wrapped the tops of cuttings with BuddyTape (a type of Parafilm) to help prevent dessication.

I used ProMix XP.  I got the large bale at a place that mixes up thousands of cubic yards of potting soil, etc. but sells some outside products as well.  I think it cost me something like $32 and would guess that I could get about 200 of these pots filled up with it, so I don't consider the cost to be significant for this purpose.

Leon, I did have quite a few Sequoia figs this year (I have a thread on large figs and showed it there) but left most of them for the birds as they were pretty bland, IMO.  I'm not a dark fig snob like Martin but would be if this was the only alternative I had to dark figs.

There are natural gas wells on my property.  I do not receive royalties because the original family that owned the farm retained the mineral rights when we purchased it.  However, I do receive free natural gas for heating residential structures (not a greenhouse, etc.).  Our days have been very pleasant lately but we had about 27 nights with frost last month and had frost again to start off 2014.  If my new solar system proves to be as productive as what my contractor says, I may heat a greenhouse with electricity down the road (might have 3,000 KwH excess or more each year).

[IMAG0733] 

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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drivewayfarmer

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Reply with quote  #11 
Harvey is that Pro Mix HP ?
I haven't seen the XP offered around here.

I have been using just the HP (High Porosity) for cuttings with good results.

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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #12 
XP should have been HP.  I was thinking in my head "Xtra Porosity", LOL  I used up the bag two days ago and the trash man came yesterday. ;)
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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Reply with quote  #13 
Harvey ,
I am glad it is the HP otherwise you would have had me trying to hunt down XP so I could try that too.
The HP seems to drain very well , better than I imagined. I've been using it in 3" pots that are only 4" tall , those Steuwe pots you have would be better , but the little ones do work pretty well for smaller cuttings.
Will be making some mini -SIP's for cuttings to see how well the HP wicks , should do fine.
Now your posting this has got me thinking about getting out my old heat mats at least for a trial.
Thanks for posting about Pro Mix HP , it has made my fig rooting easier by using it right out of the bag.

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IamKriya

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Reply with quote  #14 
Harvey - So those cuttings were placed straight into the soil without pre-rooting? If so, I would like to try this method.
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #15 
Yes, that is correct.

My first three figs planted about 10 years ago were just stuck in the garden soil in spring and 2 liter soda bottles placed over them so that they wouldn't dry out, as suggested by the friend that gave them to me.  All 3 out of 3 grew fine.

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #16 
Harvey, did you use the Pro Mix Hp straight out of the bag or did you add extra ingredients, perlite etc?

HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #17 
Mike, nothing was added besides water.  I don't know that this is the best method or anything like that, but it seems to work well and is simple.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #18 
Harvey, I was asking because I didn't have any luck that way. However, my growing conditions were not the same other than
the soil. No heat mat and the room temp not that high. I may consider another try using these conditions or as close as possible.
Would like to make it work to bypass the other steps in rooting and transplanting the young cuttings.
Bosco

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hi Harvey,

Thanks for the most interesting post and congratulations on your rooting success.  I envy your set-up! 

Your mention of “Buddy Tape” to help in limiting desiccation especially caught my eye.  I’ve lost many cuttings to this last year (my first) and wasn’t sure if it was our dry climate.  Or, did I have way too much cutting out of the soil and unnecessarily exposed?    Anyway, looks like you have the preventative answer.  

Question….. Is this the kind of tape you use?   How do you apply or wrap?   Like one layer only for all exposed cutting?  Any problem with bud poking through it?

Good report on ProMix too!  I too have had good luck using straight out of the bag.  Never tried starting a cutting directly in it though.   Seems the only draining issues I’ve encountered, are when I start trying to mix it with other products………. urgh. 

Thanks again.........


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Jack
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Reply with quote  #20 
Harvey,
Thanks for starting this Topic.
Is the Pro-Mix HP with or without  BioFungicide and Mycorrhiazae? They seem to have several different formulations. Thanks.
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #21 
Jack, it's similar to Parafilm such as what you linked to, but it's actually a slightly different film that streches more and is also perforated which makes it faster to use.  Some very large nurseries in California use it for their budding work on millions of trees.  Amazon shows AM Leonard has it and the one customer that reviewed it apparently bought from a bad batch and gave it a 1 star review.  I have never heard of anyone having problems with it before.  I bought mine direct from the USA distributor at http://www.buddytape.com/contact.html but I also know that some CRFG chapters have bought larger volumes and sold it at their annual scion exchanges.  Parafilm should work fine also but it has torn on me a little too easy.  The shoots never seem to have any trouble pushing through.

Pete, my bag is thrown away but I'm pretty sure it had the Mycorrhiazae but I don't remember anything about the BioFungicide, maybe I just didn't notice.  I bought a bag of a competing product at the time and I remember the customer rep talking tome about the Mycorrhiazae, etc. when we were comparing it.  I might go back soon to get another bag or just may finish using up the other product first.

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #22 
Harvey, is this the Parafilm you are speaking of/    http://www.amleo.com/product.aspx?p=BT25
greenfig

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Reply with quote  #23 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00FFTRTBO/ref=mp_s_a_1_10?qid=1388842603&sr=8-10&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #24 
That appears to be the same as Jack mentioned in post #19   http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085OFNVE/ref=pe_385040_30332200_pe_309540_26725410_item?tag=vglnk-c930-20                   which Harvey said is not the same as he uses.
WillsC

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Reply with quote  #25 
Harvey,

A couple questions.....would wax not be faster and easier than the film?  Have you started enough so far to know what your approximate success percentage is or is it too early for that?  
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Reply with quote  #26 

I use ProMix BX with Mycorrhiazae as well. I think the only difference between BX and HP is that HP has more Perlite. Which I add myself to the BX. I have used HP and always added additional perlite then as well. Probably don't need to add the extra but it does work out cheaper as I can buy the 4?6? cubic foot bag of perlite for I think $12 dollars. The extra perlite makes it that much harder to over-water. I only add the extra at the cup stage, mostly after that I use a bulk product of Nature's helper that is mostly half-composted Pine Bark fines locally for me. I think Nature's Helper differs regionally based on local materials. 

I might have to try Buddy Tape keep hearing good things on it. I have several rolls of Parafilm which I am happy with, but I might be going through quite a bit in the next year or too. I am thinking with local forecast for early next week and what I normally average below the published numbers that I might go -0 F. I will be top working a lot of lost trees. Mainly my persimmon. I guess on a positive the established rootstocks do push out a new tree quicker, but sometimes I just question my sanity. We have a a few years above normal lows, guess it was time to 30-50 year lows to hit me.

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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #27 
Mike, what you posted appears to be BuddyTape.  The strips are about perforated at about 2" long but stretch to around 12" long or more.  I have also used Parafilm and Nescofilm (no longer available).  Nescofilm is my favorite but is in a 4" wide roll and must be cut.  Any of them will work.  BuddyTape ends up being fastest but is probably costliest.  Parafilm tears accidentally more than the others.  Commercial nurseries only use BuddyTape as far as I am aware.

One point about applying any of these films that isn't explained on any of the products is that it should be stretched as it is applied while wrapping scions (grafts or cuttings to be rooted).  I've seen people not do this and use excess material and it doesn't stay in place very well.  When I first tried using it about 10 years ago I didn't know how to use it but asked Joe Real about it who explained it to me.

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #28 
strudeldog, you may very well push 0 come Tuesday morning. forecast is for 10 way down here in west central GA
newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #29 
I just ordered the buddy tape from   http://www.amleo.com/product.aspx?p=BT25

If you are interested in ordering a large number of rolls send me a PM and I will give you a contact and price list from the
supplier. It is much cheaper @ eight rolls or more.
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #30 
Okay, I happened to be looking for some other photos tonight and came across a photo of the bale of ProMix I used (along with the other similar product I referred to above).

[image] 

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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WillsC

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Reply with quote  #31 
Harvey,

A couple questions.....would wax not be faster and easier than the film?  What advantage do you feel the tape offers over wax?  Have you started enough so far to know what your approximate success percentage is or is it too early for that?  
 
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #32 
I've never used wax and honestly don't know what's involved for heating equipment or where to buy the right type of wax.  It would probably work well.  I am usually just doing a couple of sticks of each variety and wouldn't want to be dipping different varieties together so it probably wouldn't save me much time but probably would make a big difference if I was doing larger numbers of each variety.  It takes me about 10 seconds to wrap a cutting.

I can't say for sure - some cuttings were of marginal quality, but I think I should get close to 100% but I won't count on that until I am further along.

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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WillsC

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Reply with quote  #33 
Please keep us updated with your results as they become clearer, I for one would appreciate it.  
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #34 
So far, looking very good.  I moved this tray of cuttings out into the sunlight for a better photo and moved it right back in under the grow light on the mat.  This tray was started 35 days ago and many show a modest amount of roots at the bottom hole of the pot (these pots have a large 2" hole on the bottom, making it easy to remove plants), though sometimes it's hard to distinguish roots from fibers in the potting mix.  There is one cutting that only has one bud that is appearing to start to push but the rest look good (see cutting in the middle in the back).

The most challenging part of this (to me) is trying to water each pot the right amount.  Being packed in so closely makes it harder to pick up a pot (to test the weight to see how much moisture is in the soil) and also hard to get the right amount of water into each pot.  I sometimes use a turkey baster which works pretty well but I'm considering manufacturing some sort of tub that I can just keep the tray in and put an inch or so in the tub of water and let it wick up.  Alternatively, I might just take one tray out at a time and dunk it for five minutes in a but of water a couple of inches deep, but that can take some time because I've got quite a few trays of cuttings and plan to start more.  I now have two 2' x 4' grow lights and just ordered 2 more, kinda getting crazy. lol

[IMAG0776] 

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Harvey - Correia Farms
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Chivas

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Reply with quote  #35 
I don't know if it's still a problem but sunshine mix #4 used to have thrips in them about 10 years back it would be a problem.
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Reply with quote  #36 
http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/pro-mix-hp-biofungicideplusmycorrhizae-growing-medium/

This ProMix has got a biofungicide and prevents fungus gnats: has anyone tried it?
How were the results?

http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/growin-media-newsletter/fpxpgx/

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Sal
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Reply with quote  #37 
I only have fungus gnats from my tropicals when I bring them in for the winter, the pro mix usually doesn't get the gnats until 3-5 weeks after I start it if there was any in the tropicals pots, if no tropicals are there then I never find fungus gnats as long as i don't keep things wet.
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #38 
I used Sunshine #4 on some plants last year and never noticed thrips.  That seems like an odd problem to have with a potting soil.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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Reply with quote  #39 
I'm getting pretty decent results so far this winter plopping some cuttings straight into Fafard Nursery mix. Just adding some water like Harvey is doing into the Promix. I was actually wondering if anyone knows if Fafard is similar to Promix? My Fafard stuff is light and seems to drain very well but keeps a low amount of moisture that is sufficient for a good period of time. Kind of ideal actually--impressive soil. First time I'm using it.
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Reply with quote  #40 
Sunshine #4 that had problems was in the vancouver area, there were lots of flower greenhouses with western flower thrips around and I think this is where the problem came from of growers not knowing to control the thrips at the time and they were going to more outside and near the plants, it is a great mix.

Fafard is a fantastic mix, I use it for commercial vegetable crops.  They have a lot of science into the different mix of fibres (short, long, medium, coarse fine etc) and blend to have maximum water retention and air content.  I don't know anything about promix other than it's what I use at home since that is what is usually the cheapest when I buy it and I don't use a lot.  Promix may well have the same amount of science in it as well.  BM mix is another great one, virtually the same as pro mix and usually half the price, some folks like it better.

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Reply with quote  #41 
Harvey

Your tray of plants started directly in the Promix is looking really good - lots of nice growth there for sure. I'm sure their roots are equally productive. Thanks for keeping us posted on your results and good luck with the watering. Keep the pix coming.

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Reply with quote  #42 
Harvey,
Thanks for the update and commentary.
The problem with watering in the early stages is why I'm now testing Mini SIPs for growing cuttings in a "regular" potting mix. I will not have as many cuttings growing at one time, but I would like to be able to get them all past this stage. 
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #43 
Pete, what do you think about sticking one or two wicks in each of these pots and watering them all from the bottom in a try of water?  I might just add an inch of water and drain any that wasn't wicked up after an hour.
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Reply with quote  #44 
Harvey,
It will definitely work. I had set up a simple manual flood and drain system using a perforate and non-perforated 2010 tray. Moving the perforated tray with pots to the non-perforated with standing water, and removing after 10 minutes.

I've tested the wick in almost every small planter I could find. the only thing that you have to figure out is the size of the wick and the actual amount of time that is needed to water the whole container without it getting water logged. With the peat based mix it will be much less that 1 hour.
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #45 
Okay, so now a way to somehow insert wicks in pots that already have baby trees.  I have some ideas but will have to experiment. :)
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #46 
Oh, and an ideas on how to make a tray such as 25" x 15.5" if I can't find one?
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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Reply with quote  #47 
Cant help you with containers, but two 1/2 inch wide wicks of the Pellon Thermolam Plus material are able to properly and evenly saturate a 10 inch high 4 inch diameter container.
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #48 
I should be able to get by with something smaller, then, but is there any disadvantage other than cost of having wicks slightly larger than needed?
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ascpete

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Reply with quote  #49 
The only disadvantage is that you will move the water too quickly into the potting mix and water log it quickly. But one of the advantages is that if the "reservoir" is removed, and an air gap is place below the wick, the water will drain out of the mix if it is waterlogged. Also Once the cuttings are past the initial tender stage, they can be bottom waters with less care like a normal SIP.

The other advantage of the wicks is that you can place the water at any depth, keeping the top of the mix dry. Here's a good example, the wicks are 2 inches below the soil surface and the wicked water gets to 1 inch below the surface. BTW the dual 1/2" wick also works for the smaller 32 oz containers.
dualwick in 2 literSIP.jpg 


ztfree1128

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Reply with quote  #50 
This is a great thread, thanks for starting it, Harvey are you doing anything to manage the humidity for these cuttings? 
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